Or, Learn Parkour: An ADHD Podcast

OLP 007: Workers Unite at the Roxbury

October 12, 2020
OLP 007: Workers Unite at the Roxbury
Or, Learn Parkour: An ADHD Podcast
More Info
Or, Learn Parkour: An ADHD Podcast
OLP 007: Workers Unite at the Roxbury
Oct 12, 2020

In episode seven: Jordan and Lex tackle comorbidity. What even is comorbidity? What does it mean? What does it all mean? Well, we'll do our best to try and explain it to you. Tighten your shoelaces and do some warm up stretches, because this is our most chaotic episode yet.

Thanks for listening!

CW/TW: Mental health, ADHD, mild language, loud noises/bleeped swears, A Night at the Roxbury, election mention, politics, unions, labor laws, mood disorders, tic disorders, comorbidity, comorbid conditions, learning disabilities, neurodivergence, autism


Cover art by: Krizia Perito

Theme: There Is A Dark Place

Wholehearted Production Co.





Mental Health Resources:




Mutual Aid & Other Resources:

Indigenous Mutual Aid Directory

Mutual Aid Disaster Relief

First Nations Development Institute





Show Notes Transcript

In episode seven: Jordan and Lex tackle comorbidity. What even is comorbidity? What does it mean? What does it all mean? Well, we'll do our best to try and explain it to you. Tighten your shoelaces and do some warm up stretches, because this is our most chaotic episode yet.

Thanks for listening!

CW/TW: Mental health, ADHD, mild language, loud noises/bleeped swears, A Night at the Roxbury, election mention, politics, unions, labor laws, mood disorders, tic disorders, comorbidity, comorbid conditions, learning disabilities, neurodivergence, autism


Cover art by: Krizia Perito

Theme: There Is A Dark Place

Wholehearted Production Co.





Mental Health Resources:




Mutual Aid & Other Resources:

Indigenous Mutual Aid Directory

Mutual Aid Disaster Relief

First Nations Development Institute





Lex (00:00:00):

Hey, y'all it's Lex, before we get going here, I wanted to check in and remind everybody to check our content warnings before each episode, we like to keep things light and funny most of the time, but our show isn't necessarily family friendly so make sure you check those out just in case. I also wanted to pop in and let you all know that we actually recorded this episode almost two weeks ago now and fair to say. I think that a lot has happened since then. So wherever you live, but especially to our audience members who like us are residing in the United States, be sure to take care of yourselves and take care of one another. We have our usual links to mental health resources, and we've also added a few other links to some mutual aid funds and some other causes that you can donate to, as well as all of our usual stuff in the episode description, all that said Happy Indigenous People's Day, get out and vote. And remember that there is resistance in community. Thanks for listening to Or, Learn Parkour.


[Intro Music: There Is A Dark Place by Tom Rosenthal].

Jordan (00:01:21):

I'm Jordan.

Lex (00:01:21):

And I'm Lex.

Jordan (00:01:22):

And this is Or, Learn Parkour.

Lex (00:01:25):

Yee-haw. It's a podcast about ADHD, baby and I'm in charge this week.

Jordan (00:01:29):

Buckle up team. We all got one way tickets to the chaos realm this week.

Lex (00:01:34):

Welcome to me doing a podcast.

Jordan (00:01:37):

Hello? Hi. I'm also doing a podcast. You're just in charge of taking us to the education station this week.

Lex (00:01:43):

Yeah. And also putting my computer charger in.

Jordan (00:01:48):

This is probably important. There it is team. We are plugged in. We are buckled up when we are ready to dive in to our topic this week.

Lex (00:01:59):

Yeah. Hello and welcome to the week where we talk about comorbidity.

Jordan (00:02:04):

We've mentioned that a lot on the podcast so far. So we figured it's about time to actually explain what that means.

Lex (00:02:10):

Yeah. But this is the week where we talk about comorbidity, AKA co-occurring conditions.

Jordan (00:02:15):

I never heard that one before.

Lex (00:02:17):

That's just what the Oxford dictionary told me.

Jordan (00:02:20):

Well, then it must be true.

Lex (00:02:21):

Yeah. Co-occurring conditions is what, um, is in the dictionary, the Oxford version of it anyways.

Jordan (00:02:27):

And can you tell us what that means?

Lex (00:02:29):

Yeah. So comorbidity and or co-occurring conditions are categorized as, or defined as the simultaneous presence of two chronic diseases or conditions in a patient.

Jordan (00:02:40):

Look at your, you sound so official already. You're doing amazing sweaty.

Lex (00:02:44):

Thank you. Uh, I'm reading off of a Google doc.

Jordan (00:02:48):

I'm so proud of you.

Lex (00:02:49):

There's no bullet points or dashes or anything in these notes though. I think it would probably drive anybody else bonkers.

Jordan (00:02:56):

Well, luckily nobody else has to look at it.

Lex (00:02:58):

Yeah. So let's talk, I mean, I'll say Jordan.

Jordan (00:03:02):


Lex (00:03:02):

What do you know about comorbidity? What is your idea of comorbidity?

Jordan (00:03:06):

So now I feel like I know a lot more about it since A) you just defined it for us all. And B) since I got diagnosed with ADHD, after going to a therapist for depression and anxiety and discovering how those things interact, although I will say before, I knew what it meant. I just knew what the word morbid meant. And so I, I didn't, I had a very incorrect idea of what it meant because morbid means like related to death.

Lex (00:03:36):


Jordan (00:03:36):

So I, I thought that like, if, if conditions were comorbid it meant if you had them together, you were like more likely to die.

Lex (00:03:48):


Jordan (00:03:48):

And I was like, looking at my chart, like I got anxiety, I got the depression, I got the ADHD, I got the auditory processing disorder.

Lex (00:04:00):

The hello.

Jordan (00:04:03):

The, the auditory processing disorder.

Lex (00:04:06):

Right. Okay. Cool.

Jordan (00:04:07):

And I was like, well, bummer. Like, can I get enough in the chat?

Lex (00:04:12):

Brutal. Um, brutal, brutal. I, uh, yeah. I mean, so comorbid conditions are not necessarily about like dying.

Jordan (00:04:23):

Yeah, no, I, I know that now.

Lex (00:04:25):

But it is also, it's not just a psychiatric term.

Jordan (00:04:28):


Lex (00:04:29):

So it is also used in terms of like, I'm sure many of you have seen with the, everything that people will talk about comorbid conditions or comorbidity being a riskier time for people who catch the COVID, but that's not how we're going to be. We're not talking about that type of comorbidity.

Jordan (00:04:45):

Right. In this context it just means disorders that are likely to occur together. Right?

Lex (00:04:51):

Yeah. So it's either disorders or illnesses or conditions that co-occur.

Jordan (00:04:57):


Lex (00:04:57):

I say that just because there's a lot of different ways to talk about ADHD and ADHD being talked about as an illness is frustrating, I think for all of us so I'm going to try to stay away from that language, but I did read it quite a bit. Um, cause you know, you Google search a thing.

Jordan (00:05:17):

You see how it's represented as just the ways it inconveniences neurotypical people.

Lex (00:05:23):

Yeah. And then you go on to the fancy Google scholar.

Jordan (00:05:28):


Lex (00:05:28):

And then you search it then. And you're like, cool. So this is more technical and correct. But also I'm so bored. Academics. Why? I say this as someone who was in academia for a long time, but why.

Jordan (00:05:42):

But you're right and you have the background to prove that you're right. And you should say it.

Lex (00:05:46):

It's boring.

Jordan (00:05:48):

You did bad academics.

Lex (00:05:50):

Like I understand with medical science, like, well, and with any area of study, you want to be as specific and accurate as possible, most of the time, sometimes people don't seem to be super dedicated to that, but you should be. So I get it, but it hurts my brain. So stop. So, okay. Let's talk about the types of comorbidity then in regards to ADHD.

Jordan (00:06:12):

So on a scale of 1 to Baskin Robbins, how many flavors of comorbidity are there?

Lex (00:06:18):

So there's three categories of comorbid conditions, often linked to ADHD, but within those categories, there is some breakdown. So, and before we get into those comorbidities, I want to mention that we have talked about comorbidity before on this podcast in relation to the fact that both Jordan and I have anxiety and depression, along with our ADHD.

Jordan (00:06:42):

We sure do.

Lex (00:06:43):

Yeah. And for me, and for you, I think those are truly comorbid conditions in that they are not resolved just with treatment for ADHD versus secondary conditions. So if you have depression because of your ADHD, a secondary condition is very similar to a comorbidity, but they're not quite the same cause the secondary condition is a condition that is triggered by the frustration of coping with symptoms of ADHD.

Jordan (00:07:10):


Lex (00:07:12):

Versus when a secondary issue does not resolve with effective ADHD treatment, they are more likely symptoms of an actual comorbid condition.

Jordan (00:07:22):


Lex (00:07:22):

So basically if your depression and anxiety are only triggered in specific instances where some symptoms of ADHD are causing you distress.

Jordan (00:07:32):


Lex (00:07:32):

That'd be a secondary condition.

Jordan (00:07:34):

So like if you were frustrated about say not being able to get as much stuff done as you want to because of your ADHD and that happens so much that it caused a depressive episode, that would be secondary?

Lex (00:07:48):

I believe so from what I was reading, I believe so. The way that they defined the difference, which I will add that caveat, this is an incredibly complex subject that researchers are still putting a lot of time, money and effort into understanding because ADHD itself, as we've talked about before is pretty weird to diagnose. There's a lot of different criteria that not everyone fits there's criteria that often overlaps with diagnoses of autism. And so trying to sort through all of those things is really difficult. And so comorbidities and the study of them is still really like, we're probably going to be making an episode about this. If we still, if we still have this podcast in 10 years, we will probably be making another episode about this that's completely different or maybe even contrary to what we're saying. So I want to kind of add that caveat.

Jordan (00:08:37):

That makes sense, that seems to be a theme of a lot of the research topics we cover on this.

Lex (00:08:42):

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, yeah, you're right. That's a pattern that I've found anyways, when we've been researching different things is just so much of it is widely disagreed upon right now.

Jordan (00:08:53):


Lex (00:08:54):

And so much of it, people just have a lot of different opinions and a lot of different experiences too. Right? So it's hard to categorize these things. So I just want to add that caveat before we really start digging in. Um, I don't want y'all to be like, well, they defined it wrong. Cause like, this is a sort of what I have found in my research for a podcast where we are not medical professionals, nor are we therapists nor are we psychiatrists or psychologists. So like, if you're really expecting like some really in-depth academic level research, like we do our best. But like if you're expecting us to be like super right, all the time-

Jordan (00:09:28):

Oh bad call.

Lex (00:09:29):

Bad call, like get bent. That's wrong. No, we are not like, we're not, I'm not gonna speak for both of us, but I'm kind of a dumb, dumb a lot of the time. So like, I think I'm a dingus you know.

Jordan (00:09:41):

I would just say across the board, lower your expectations. And then you can be pleasantly surprised. How about that?

Lex (00:09:48):

Yeah. And also putting people on a pedestal and expecting them to like know everything about a certain thing is wild.

Jordan (00:09:53):

I know everything about-

Lex (00:09:55):

The Scarlet Pimpernel?

Jordan (00:09:55):

Okay. Well, okay. Well that-

Lex (00:10:00):

I broke her.

Jordan (00:10:02):

Maybe that but not many other things. I was trying to come up with something I know everything about and I couldn't, I don't know.

Lex (00:10:09):

It's almost like we're not omniscient. It's almost like we're people.

Jordan (00:10:13):


Lex (00:10:13):


Jordan (00:10:14):

We're what?

Lex (00:10:14):

Yeah. We're people.

Jordan (00:10:16):

Oh my God.

Lex (00:10:16):

Hannah Montana was right. Everybody makes mistakes. Everybody has those days. Remember how on episode 4, I had to do an apology already. Like, I don't know. I'm assuming y'all know at this point, but I just do want to add, we're not researchers in our own right on this. Like we're just trying to make it a little bit more palatable because it is hard to read sometimes.

Jordan (00:10:37):

It is hard to read sometimes and you can do as much clinical research as you want, but staring at a page of numbers, doesn't do the same thing as hearing that somebody else is going through the same thing as you like an actual person.

Lex (00:10:50):


Jordan (00:10:51):

So we're going to do our best to do that.

Lex (00:10:53):

But just know that this is also through our own experience with ADHD and comorbid conditions. Anyways. We talked about secondary conditions. We talked about those supposed alleged difference between secondary conditions and comorbidities.

Jordan (00:11:05):

The elicit rumors of a difference. Sure.

Lex (00:11:07):

Now let us move on to your initial question, which is how many flavors of comorbidity are there.

Jordan (00:11:13):

I had forgotten already, but please tell me.

Lex (00:11:15):

Yeah very good Baskin Robbins metaphor you had played out there for us, which does not apply at all because Baskin Robbins has like at least 36 flavors.

Jordan (00:11:23):

This is true. What's your favorite one?

Lex (00:11:24):

I don't know. I don't eat at Baskin Robbins that mu- or no, 31. It has at least 31 flavors. And the only reason I know that is because of that one song that talks about women being like the flavors of Baskin Robbin.

Jordan (00:11:38):

That's the new [inaudible]

Lex (00:11:41):

Which flavor of woman are you?

Jordan (00:11:42):

I personally-

Lex (00:11:46):

As long as they have a, uh, a bubble yum bum bum bum bum.

Jordan (00:11:51):

I was gonna say I'm, I'm a love potion type because they have the little like chocolate hearts that have the raspberry stuff in the middle. And that one's really good.

Lex (00:11:59):

I didn't even know that was an ice cream, but that sounds good.

Jordan (00:12:01):

It's delicious and I would say that my heart is full of raspberry jam.

Lex (00:12:06):

We might want to get you to a doctor, but-

Jordan (00:12:09):

It's too late for me. Go on, go on without me. Go on Lex. I, I lo-

Lex (00:12:19):

I wanted to see how long she could hold her breath. This week I actually kill my roommate on accident. Um, I hate you so much.

Jordan (00:12:34):

And then we transitioned into a true crime podcast.

Lex (00:12:38):

Dun dun.

Jordan (00:12:39):

Um, I'm mad that we're talking in person, so I can't hang up on you right now.

Lex (00:12:46):

I'm sorry.

Jordan (00:12:47):

Oh God. I'm crying a little bit.

Lex (00:12:51):

Okay. Okay.

Jordan (00:12:51):

Anyways so tell me about the 31 flavors of comorbidity.

Lex (00:12:54):

Yeah, so the, the 31 minus 28 flavors. So the three.

Jordan (00:12:59):


Lex (00:13:00):


Jordan (00:13:00):


Lex (00:13:00):

I hate how long it took me to come up with that correct subtraction. And I hate how long it took you to fact check it a little in your head.

Jordan (00:13:08):

I did not at all. I trusted you implicitly.

Lex (00:13:11):

Okay, cool.

Jordan (00:13:12):

I think I've said on every episode of the show that I can't do math.

Lex (00:13:14):

That's so f***ing valid.

Jordan (00:13:17):

I'm gonna have to bleep that now.

Lex (00:13:18):


Jordan (00:13:19):

It's okay.

Lex (00:13:19):

Um, I'm not, uh, I really, I think if I, how many, how many times do y'all think I can say f***, and Jordan will just get tired of bleeping them that we can just have an explicit podcast?

Jordan (00:13:32):


Lex (00:13:32):

F***, f***, f***, f***, f***, f***, f***

Jordan (00:13:38):

At one point I'm going to have to stop doing individual bleeps and just edit the sound of a semi-truck driving by.

Lex (00:13:44):

Yeah. Like sea creature noises like they do in SpongeBob? Yeah.

Jordan (00:13:50):

I'm just going to see if I can do that live now?

Lex (00:13:52):

Or like a foghorn is one of them. Can you try that one?

Jordan (00:13:55):

Yeah, I'll try that.

Lex (00:13:55):

Ready. Okay. I cannot f***.

Jordan (00:13:56):


Lex (00:13:59):

That didn't work at all. That's not a foghorn either.

Jordan (00:14:02):

I was going for the dolphin noises.

Lex (00:14:04):

That was, what?

Jordan (00:14:05):

Do you want me to do a foghorn?

Lex (00:14:07):

Do you know how to do a foghorn?

Jordan (00:14:08):

I can try to do a foghorn. Let me sit up real fast.

Lex (00:14:14):

Oh my God. We're in a blanket fort.

Jordan (00:14:17):

We sure are. I'm sweating so much.

Lex (00:14:18):

Oh no.

Jordan (00:14:19):

It's okay.

Lex (00:14:20):

Take your shirt off. That's what I did. I just, I'm just sitting here in my bra. We're roommates ma'am.

Jordan (00:14:29):

Which means I know how much we pay in rent. You can't afford that.

Lex (00:14:33):

Yeah. Okay. So the three categories of comorbid conditions that people usually defer to, as I found upon the great worldwide web-

Jordan (00:14:41):


Lex (00:14:41):

Are cortical right. I f***ed up already.

Jordan (00:14:46):

A little delayed, but I feel like it was still a good foghorn effort. Do I get points for that still?

Lex (00:14:52):

No, because a foghorn is like [yelling].

Jordan (00:14:56):

Oh, it's the two-tone.

Lex (00:14:57):


Jordan (00:14:58):


Lex (00:14:58):

Yeah. This week on true life. My roommate's a walrus.

Jordan (00:15:06):

I can do whale sounds really good.

Lex (00:15:08):

Yeah but those are so peaceful. You wouldn't want to use that over my explicit language.

Jordan (00:15:12):

Maybe it would balance it out a little bit.

Lex (00:15:14):

I'm just imagining, just being like you mother f***er as you're just like.

Both (00:15:27):

[attempts at animals noises].

Lex (00:15:36):

This is bad audio. This is so bad. I hate us so much. Okay. So the three categories.

Jordan (00:15:47):

Okay. The three categories.

Lex (00:15:48):

The three categories of comorbid conditions. As I found it on the worldwide web as most people seem to divide them. ADHD comorbidity number one, cortical wiring problems. ADHD comorbidity number two, problems regulating emotions. ADHD comorbidity number three, tic disorders. Yeah. So let's start now that we have those let's start with cortical wiring problems.

Jordan (00:16:18):

Yes let's.

Lex (00:16:19):

By the way, we will have links to the sources where I found a lot of these things. I just don't want to cite every single quote verbally because who has the time? Not me. And definitely not y'all our podcast episodes just seem to get longer so I don't, I'm not adding on to that.

Jordan (00:16:32):

It'll be in the link.

Lex (00:16:35):

It'll be in the episode description.

Jordan (00:16:36):


Lex (00:16:37):

Where the links go.

Jordan (00:16:38):

Where the links have been, where the links will always be.

Lex (00:16:40):

Yep. That's my impression of Link. Thank you. Okay. So let's talk about cortical wiring problems.

Jordan (00:16:50):


Lex (00:16:50):

The definition of cortical wiring problems that I found was.

Jordan (00:16:54):

Can you do it in an accent?

Lex (00:16:55):

Cortical wiring problems are caused by structural abnormalities in the cerebral cortex, the brain region responsible for high level brain functions, cortical wiring problems include, learning disabilities, language disabilities, fine and gross motor difficulties, executive function difficulties, cortical wiring problems are treated with academic accommodations and lifestyle changes. They do not respond to medication.

Jordan (00:17:22):

Watch as the executive dysfunction in its natural habitat ruins your life.

Lex (00:17:28):

Is that what my accent evoked for you?

Jordan (00:17:29):

I got a David Attenborough vibe.

Lex (00:17:31):


Jordan (00:17:32):


Lex (00:17:32):

I didn't know what I was going for. I just kind of was like, I am going to do an accent that is hopefully easily understandable and not completely inaccessible to everyone everywhere. AKA. I just went for very calm news anchor.

Jordan (00:17:45):


Lex (00:17:45):

So I, yeah. Okay. David Attenborough.

Jordan (00:17:47):


Lex (00:17:47):

You're right. Okay. So learning disabilities, language disabilities, fine and gross motor difficulties, executive function difficulties. Let's talk about those.

Jordan (00:17:54):

Yes. Let's.

Lex (00:17:55):

That's when we start talking about auditory processing, sensory processing, um, dyslexia, the overlap between ADHD and autism.

Jordan (00:18:03):


Lex (00:18:03):

Because it's in the cerebral cortex.

Jordan (00:18:06):


Lex (00:18:06):

Those comorbidities come from our brain, apparently being a little structurally different.

Jordan (00:18:11):

Okay. Interesting.

Lex (00:18:12):

There you go. That's category number one.

Jordan (00:18:13):

All right.

Lex (00:18:14):

Okay. So yeah, let's do number two then problems regulating emotions.

Jordan (00:18:18):

Okay. Can you-

Lex (00:18:18):

Um what?

Jordan (00:18:19):

I'm so excited to hear about problems regulating emotions, I'm really ready for it.

Lex (00:18:24):


Jordan (00:18:24):

What I would like you to give me another take, make another choice.

Lex (00:18:30):

Another accent?

Jordan (00:18:31):

Yes please.

Lex (00:18:32):


Jordan (00:18:33):

Lay it on us please.

Lex (00:18:34):

Okay. Here we go. Problems regulating emotions. Problems regulating emotions often include depression, anxiety disorders, including panic attacks, anger control problems, including intermittent explosive disorder or oppositional defiance disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder aka OCD, bipolar disorder. Regulatory problems often respond to a group of medications known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors or SSRI's which generally can be used in conjunction with ADHD medications. That was my disc jockey version.

Jordan (00:19:12):

I was going to say, I wasn't sure whether you were about to hit me with a chair or try to get me to be a part of a class action lawsuit for asbestos inhalation or both. I think both is good. It was very good. I don't know what it was but it was-

Lex (00:19:30):

That was my shock jock voice. Like my morning commute, shock jock voice where I just say shit like, um, here, here we go. Next up we're going t-

Jordan (00:19:41):

We're going to what?

Lex (00:19:42):

Next up we're going to play Bruce. Springsteen's Born in the USA on repeat, punch Nazis. Be a true patriot. I mean, yeah punch nazis. Be a true Patriot. I'm 103.3's The Tifft.

Jordan (00:20:01):

Nick Kroll in Parks and Rec who?

Lex (00:20:05):

Thank you. Um, my next role that I'm going to be, uh, auditioning for is just going to be a better, less problematic version of Big Mouth.

Jordan (00:20:15):

Oh, I was, I was going to-

Lex (00:20:16):

Also starring Nick Kroll, aka The Douche. Douche nation.

Jordan (00:20:24):

I was really hoping you were going to go for this show he was in with John Mulaney, but whatever butters your parsnip.

Lex (00:20:29):

That's Big Mouth.

Jordan (00:20:31):

No, sorry. The play, the Broadway show. The fact that those two people were both on Broadway at the same time with each other and that's wild.

Lex (00:20:37):

Yeah, no, they're like friends. So anyways, I feel like these all kind of are like what, what they say on the tin, right? Like cortical wiring problems include like learning disabilities and language disabilities and like motor difficulties. So when you have sensory issues, when you have an auditory processing disorder, when you have dyslexia.

Jordan (00:20:54):


Lex (00:20:54):

That's that sort of realm. And then the second door that we've opened is regulating emotions. So a lot of the co-morbidities that also exhibit symptoms of RSD and emotional dysregulation, as you can hear from our last episode, those are all in this sort of number two range. We both, we both have depression and anxiety and for us, they are both actual comorbid conditions and not secondary. I'm going to talk a little bit about the ways you can separate what's a comorbid condition, what's a secondary condition and what's just ADHD at the end of this. But I want to kind of give us some groundwork. I will get there, but problems with regulating emotions that also feels pretty on the nose in terms of it's right there in the name.

Jordan (00:21:41):

Fairly straightforward. Yeah.

Lex (00:21:41):

Yeah. And a lot of that is seen in ADHD and I think this is the one where people get more tripped up on, is this a secondary condition or is this an actual comorbidity?

Jordan (00:21:52):


Lex (00:21:53):

After we talk about co-morbidity flavor, number three, I'll kind of walk us back here and we can talk about how do you tell, you know, how do you know?

Jordan (00:22:01):

All right, well, we'll put a pin in that for later.

Lex (00:22:03):

Yeah. Let's check out comorbidity number three, AKA tic disorders. I think some of y'all know what a tic is. It's when there's a sudden twitch of whole muscle groups. Oh. And they vary in severity level. And what sort of muscle group is affected. So these are super varied, but they typically include motor tics, which is when you're, you know, when people have involuntary eye blinking, head jerking, repeated gestures, tapping things that you do physically, you know, motor movement, right.

Jordan (00:22:32):

Physical activity.

Lex (00:22:34):

Hmhm. So there are oral tics. Th.

Jordan (00:22:35):

ose can range from noises to words. And sometimes in some cases it can be like involuntary profanity or phrases. And the thing is that this, the idea of a tic disorder is most often associated with Tourette syndrome, which I'm pretty sure most people have heard of.

Jordan (00:22:52):

Yeah, I think that that's, uh, a fairly-

Lex (00:22:54):


Jordan (00:22:55):


Lex (00:22:56):


Jordan (00:22:57):

Not an indie syndrome.

Lex (00:22:58):

Yeah. Well, and I think a lot of the time, at least for me growing up, I learned a lot about Tourette's because people would make jokes about it and make fun of people with Tourette's, you know, like elementary school and middle schoolers. Kids, I know we just said last episode, the kids are great and they are, but also sometimes they're monsters.

Jordan (00:23:12):

Kids contain multitudes too.

Lex (00:23:14):

Yes. But Tourette's syndrome is when there are multiple motor and vocal tics that have been present in someone for more than a year. Sometimes people with ADHD can have Tourette's as a comorbid condition or they have a single or a couple of motor tics and verbal tics or oral tics.

Jordan (00:23:30):


Lex (00:23:30):

So the way that these are all defined right is cause you could have a lot of different comorbidities. These are just the most common, and this is how they've been categorized as these three sort of categories. Right? That seem to at least from what I understood and let me know if this makes sense to you, Jordan and to y'all audience. Um, well, those are the most common, so-

Jordan (00:23:48):

Okay. So are you saying then that there are other ones that exist outside of these flavors?

Lex (00:23:53):

Yeah, no. I mean like, I'm sure there's someone out there who has like ALS and ADHD and like people are so varied. Right?

Jordan (00:24:01):

Sure. Okay. So, sorry, just to clarify, a comorbid syndrome is just anything that occurs together? It doesn't have anything to do with like likelihood or commonality or these things usually happen together?

Lex (00:24:13):

From what I was researching no.

Jordan (00:24:13):


Lex (00:24:15):

Because what I saw was when people talk about these comorbidities they talked about them in the context of being common comorbidity with ADHD.

Jordan (00:24:23):


Lex (00:24:24):

And again, that's like comorbidity, like, right. Like you can have, you can have typhoid and the Spanish flu at the same time. That'd be a huge bummer, but it's possible I think, so.

Jordan (00:24:34):


Lex (00:24:35):

I don't know. That's how I've understood it.

Jordan (00:24:37):


Lex (00:24:37):

So it's not an ADHD specific thing.

Jordan (00:24:40):

Right. Right.

Lex (00:24:41):

And so with these three categories, when I say they're the most common comorbidities, I think the link to ADHD is the common part.

Jordan (00:24:48):


Lex (00:24:49):

Does that make sense?

Jordan (00:24:50):

Yeah, that makes sense. And that's a good thing, at least for me to hear, because I have in interacting with the ADHD community, most often heard of comorbidity in the sense of these things commonly occur together and in the context of this is how you deal with them both at the same time, because they directly interact with each other.

Lex (00:25:11):

Yeah. I saw-

Jordan (00:25:12):

That's a good thing to note.

Lex (00:25:13):

Oh, I wish I had jotted down who the Twitter user was, but I saw someone on Twitter responding about comorbid conditions and I think it was specifically about ADHD and autism and how say autism is a chocolate bar and ADHD is vanilla ice cream.

Jordan (00:25:29):


Lex (00:25:30):

If you have ADHD and autism, you are chocolate ice cream. You're a completely different category. Does that make sense?

Jordan (00:25:36):


Lex (00:25:36):

So that helped me a lot.

Jordan (00:25:38):


Lex (00:25:38):

But you know, the, the three categories that I just listed off and explained a little bit, those are the most common comorbidities.

Jordan (00:25:45):

I love how that metaphor just came full circle with the ice cream.

Lex (00:25:49):

Yeah. Oh, Baskin Robbins. Yes. I forgot about that. So I was like, what? Hello?

Jordan (00:25:54):


Lex (00:25:55):

How do you know then if it's a comorbid condition or a secondary problem?

Jordan (00:25:59):

How do you Lex?

Lex (00:26:02):

How do you know?

Both (00:26:03):

[singing] How do you know?

Lex (00:26:03):

I hate, I hate, I hate us.

Jordan (00:26:03):

I love that movie.

Lex (00:26:10):

Yeah. No, it's a very good movie, but that was obnoxious, very annoying.

Jordan (00:26:13):

Do you want to do a musical episode?

Lex (00:26:15):


Jordan (00:26:17):

Audience, this is what you're going to have to make do with, since apparently we can't do a musical episode. That's all you get, do you want to tell us how these things are? How do you know if these things are comorbid or just secondary, you want to fill us in, are you just going to keep glaring at me? I'm getting a very, very powerful glare across the studio desk here.

Lex (00:26:36):

The studio desk. It's a treasure chest. God she's so, so pretentious. Shut up. It's a treasure chest with a blanket over it.

Jordan (00:26:44):

For sound muting.

Lex (00:26:45):

Yeah. I mean, I have a treasure chest that has been my coffee table since my senior year of college. And I don't think I'm ever going to get rid of it.

Jordan (00:26:51):

It's done us very well in this house I will say.

Lex (00:26:54):

It has.

Jordan (00:26:55):

Thank you treasure chest.

Lex (00:26:56):

Yes. Um, secondary problems are not always occurring.

Jordan (00:27:00):


Lex (00:27:01):

Secondary problems typically begin and end at certain times or occur because of certain circumstances.

Jordan (00:27:08):

Okay. Can you elaborate on that?

Lex (00:27:10):

The example that I found was if someone is chilling and has ADHD, but is just chilling and then they go to school and at school they become incredibly anxious, but then when they leave school, they're not that anxious, that's considered potentially a secondary issue. Cause the anxiety may be caused by ADHD, not being a super great thing to have when you're in school.

Jordan (00:27:32):

Right. Okay.

Lex (00:27:33):

With our current system the way it is.

Jordan (00:27:35):


Lex (00:27:35):

Remember how, on the first episode we talked about like, if you have ADHD, it will affect all parts of your life.

Jordan (00:27:41):


Lex (00:27:41):

Same hat.

Jordan (00:27:42):

Okay. Same hat.

Lex (00:27:43):

Same hat. So I was a little tripped up by that because I was like, well, what depression, I'm not depressed all the time. Like I have depressive episodes.

Jordan (00:27:51):


Lex (00:27:52):

But the things that trigger my depressive episodes don't have generally as much to do with my ADHD specifically. They can.

Jordan (00:28:00):

But not exclusively?

Lex (00:28:01):

But not exclusively. Yes.

Jordan (00:28:03):

Okay, cool.

Lex (00:28:03):

So in contrast then a comorbid disorder or a comorbid condition are chronic and this word is so powerful, chronic and pervasive. So again, they occur in every sort of facet of your life.

Jordan (00:28:19):

Chronic and all around town. All right.

Lex (00:28:21):

If you're feeling anxious in multiple different facets and multiple different environments, you probably just have the anxiety and those things can interact with your ADHD and can be affected by your ADHD and your ADHD can be affected by your comorbidities. Right?

Jordan (00:28:36):

Cause you're so anxious at school and other places that's comorbid?

Lex (00:28:41):


Jordan (00:28:41):

All right.

Lex (00:28:42):

According to what I found in my research for this episode.

Jordan (00:28:45):

All right. I'm sure if we're dead wrong, we'll hear about it cause that's how the internet is.

Lex (00:28:50):

That's so true. So true. And I cannot stress enough how this is still all preliminary and all very fluid and changeable.

Jordan (00:28:58):

You heard it here, folks, not first, but you heard it.

Lex (00:29:01):

Yeah. And a lot of people have different opinions and thoughts on this because we still don't understand fully, right? Like-

Jordan (00:29:06):


Lex (00:29:07):

We, we still don't even understand fully what ADHD brains are doing versus what non ADHD brains are doing. Right.

Jordan (00:29:14):


Lex (00:29:14):

Like there's still research being done. And because people have such different lived experiences within the community, it's hard to just go by like anecdotal evidence. And it's not like there's an easy way to gather everyone together who has ADHD and look at their brains. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this because do you think we even need to be able to define these comorbid disorders or not? Because some people have opinions on both sides of that.

Jordan (00:29:40):

I guess I would say and this is based on my treatment experience with having comorbid disorders is that I think having a disorder, whether it's comorbid or secondary is equally as valid, but it could be helpful in treatment to know, for example, I am on multiple medications. Some of them treat my ADHD. Some of them treat my largely seasonal, but this year has not been real depression. Some of them treat my anxiety. If my depression and anxiety were secondary then treating my ADHD would be primary and the rest of those things would kind of fall into line. Whereas that's not what works for me. So having that delineation, I feel like it's the same sort of concept as defining ADHD at all, where having an official diagnosis or an official word for it that, you know, for sure is the right word is less important than having a word for a toolbox that might help to narrow down ways to make that better for you.

Lex (00:30:45):


Jordan (00:30:46):

Does that make sense?

Lex (00:30:46):


Jordan (00:30:47):

What would you say?

Lex (00:30:48):

Um, for me, I think I'm on sort of that page of, you know, whatever you want to call it. This is how my brain works and this is what is happening and this is how it's affecting my life so what can I do to fix those problems? But to fix the problems that have been caused by the way, my brain doesn't necessarily work in the systems that we live in, it is helpful to have the, that delineation, like you said, for treatment, because similar to Jordan, we are on the same medication. Uh-

Jordan (00:31:15):

We're just so connected.

Lex (00:31:16):

Yeah. I just realized I didn't do an accent for the tic disorders. Sorry. Tic disorders. I forgot cause this is an ADHD podcast and who has time to commit to a bit for that long.

Jordan (00:31:28):

That's fair. In defense of, not defense of bright side for folks with tic disorders that was probably the clearest information in the podcast.

Lex (00:31:38):

I don't know. I feel like the first one was pretty clear and the second one was aggressive, but I enunciated.

Jordan (00:31:43):

You did. You did amazing.

Lex (00:31:45):

Thank you.

Jordan (00:31:46):

You're so welcome.

Lex (00:31:48):

Yeah, no, for me, I think it is sort of that like on the one hand I'm like, who gives a shit what I technically am diagnosed with or not. I know that I need a certain set of tools to get through life. However, on the other hand, I'm like the diagnosis is super helpful and oh yeah just to tack on what you were saying, so correct about secondary or comorbid, all valid, all like if you're experiencing depression or anxiety, you're experiencing depression or anxiety and whether it's secondary to your ADHD or a comorbid condition, it's valid and you deserve to have help if you want it.

Jordan (00:32:22):

Yeah. Your impariment or difficulty, doesn't have to be the most difficult out of anybody to be difficult, or to deserve-

Lex (00:32:32):


Jordan (00:32:32):

-attention and treatment and care.

Lex (00:32:34):

And I'm sure some of you are wondering Lex why haven't you talked about the overlap and comorbidity between autism and ADHD cause that's a big one.

Jordan (00:32:43):

Why haven't you?

Lex (00:32:44):

Because that should be a whole other episode. Uh, I'll say just for this episode, ADHD and autism are both very misunderstood and very argued about the definitions of both, the diagnoses of both, what they look like in different people. They're all so different, right? It's like that chocolate ice cream, chocolate ice cream sort of thing of like, there are some people who have both ADHD and autism. There are some people who have ADHD who have overlapping traits with autism and vice versa. It's a huge, vast topic. And I did not feel equipped to address that in just this episode when we're talking about all of these other things as well. And it is also one of the most like volatile areas of, in terms of how people feel about it and how people feel in terms of how to treat both of those things or how to diagnose both of those things.

Lex (00:33:37):

And I mean, a lot of it also comes down to the fact that because a lot of people can't afford health insurance and medical care getting diagnosed with anything can be nearly impossible.

Jordan (00:33:51):

Oh, it's a, it's a wild ride.

Lex (00:33:53):

It's not accessible at all in our country at least I know we have some listeners who are not in the United States and aren't US citizens. So I know that y'all probably have a very different experience than we do. So I do want to add that, like, this is the US ADHD experience that we've lived through.

Jordan (00:34:10):


Lex (00:34:10):

And from what I see a lot on the online neurodivergent ADHD and autism sort of communities.

Jordan (00:34:17):

Hashtag neurodivergent squad.

Lex (00:34:18):

Yeah. But what I've seen a lot of is that back and forth of like, who gives a, what I have or what I am.

Jordan (00:34:26):


Lex (00:34:26):

If I know what works for me to work in this society. Right?

Jordan (00:34:31):


Lex (00:34:31):

And then there are other people who are like, okay, but like there is some value to know where the delineation lies. And then there are other people who are like, we don't even know if there's a delineation, is ADHD, just a form of autism or vice versa. And people just don't know.

Jordan (00:34:45):


Lex (00:34:45):

And researchers are still working on that. And so again, big episode, big tangent here. But I did want to address that because I know that there's going to be people being like, um, why didn't you talk about the big one?

Jordan (00:34:55):

That's super fair and I, I can only speak for myself here and my own diagnoses, but as somebody who has not been diagnosed with autism and does not relate to that in a way that would make me want to look for a diagnosis, I don't feel qualified to speak to that without an autistic voice in the room.

Lex (00:35:14):

Yes. Yeah. That, that too.

Jordan (00:35:15):

Which is to say, if you are autistic or you are curious about that, or you are using tools out of that toolbox, we would love to hear from you.

Lex (00:35:24):

You want to come on and talk about it? I don't know.

Jordan (00:35:26):

Yeah drop us a line please.

Lex (00:35:27):

And also we like making friends, like we, the few messages that I've received from people just talking about what the show has meant to them have made my day. Like the, when I get those messages, I am just on cloud nine. So that's great. And then also, if someone wants to come and talk to us on the podcast.

Jordan (00:35:46):

That'd be amazing.

Lex (00:35:47):

That'd be so fun.

Jordan (00:35:48):

We have our experiences and we can share them. But we also want to hear about yours, your stories. So worth telling. So come talk to us.

Lex (00:35:59):

Yeah um.

Jordan (00:35:59):

Talk with us I should say. We'll talk back. Not in a rude way, in a, in a conversation way I want to, yeah. Yeah.

Lex (00:36:05):

Let's have a chat. So, um, anyway. Yeah. So I, I did want to add that caveat. I wanted to acknowledge the discourse about autism and ADHD and how those overlap and interact. But I did want to make it clear that I wasn't going to focus on that for this episode, because I don't have the range for that personally.

Jordan (00:36:23):

She doesn't have the range dahling but we still love you.

Lex (00:36:26):

Thanks. Um, this is also something that I found a lot of spots where you could just Google quizzes, you can take. And I, I have some feelings about quizzes, like, I love a good You quiz. Love a good personality quiz.

Jordan (00:36:42):

Absolutely, the more Mitski lyrics on that, the better.

Lex (00:36:45):

Yeah. Um, now she just derailed me.

Jordan (00:36:47):

Sorry. I didn't mean to play the Mitski card so early.

Lex (00:36:51):

I know but you know how I feel about Mitski.

Jordan (00:36:53):

I do. Quizzes.

Lex (00:36:55):

Quizzes. Thank you. I was just thinking about how Jordan and I are one day going to put on a production of Hamlet that is gender non-conforming and all I can contribute to that so far, is that the final scene and playing out into the end credits that's not the word that the-

Jordan (00:37:11):


Lex (00:37:11):

There we go.

Jordan (00:37:12):

Got a theater degree for something.

Lex (00:37:14):


Jordan (00:37:15):

10s of thousands of dollars built up to this moment in our podcast. It was all worth it.

Lex (00:37:20):

Yeah. I mean, you can just tell that I have done theater, but primarily it just existed around all of the film bros.

Jordan (00:37:28):


Lex (00:37:29):

Quizzes. I have a lot of feelings about quizzes for like, take this quiz to see if you have symptoms of BPD, because here's a lot of like confirmation bias issues in that. And also like, I don't think a quiz or a quick assessment is something that can really help you. I think it can be a tool at times, but I know that for me personally, if I see quizzes about, okay, I'd be lying if I said that I didn't take like ADHD quizzes just to be like, do I have it? Because I think my issue with quizzes regarding this sort of issue and regarding like your mental existence, I don't know like your, the way quizzes to see how your brain works doesn't sit super well with me because you don't know who made those quizzes.

Jordan (00:38:11):


Lex (00:38:11):

And you don't know, you can answer multiple choice quizzes in ways that don't necessarily, I don't know, like if you're looking for a diagnosis, you can just, you can have confirmation bias-

Jordan (00:38:21):


Lex (00:38:22):

-going into that. And so I think there's some caution to be taken there. However, I would be lying if I said that I hadn't taken my share of ADHD quizzes, but for me in my experience, what those have done have just made me second guess everything all time and make me feel very much like an imposter of sorts. You know what I mean?

Jordan (00:38:40):


Lex (00:38:41):

Like I have all of these symptoms, I have been diagnosed. And even if I hadn't gotten an official diagnosis, I think it would be pretty apparent upon research and just looking at my life. But taking quizzes makes me feel like I'm trying to justify.

Jordan (00:38:57):

Still testing the validity of that.

Lex (00:38:59):

Yeah. Yes. And I'm not saying that there are people who don't misdiagnose themselves. Cause I know that happens. But a lot of people who have diagnosed themselves, especially in the neurodivergent community, it has been done under so much research, so much thought, so much shame and guilt that I think that I'm not alone in that sort of imposter feeling of like, do I really have ADHD? While also just, I so often think like, who am I to have a podcast about this? You know, like I'm not a therapist, I'm not a clinical researcher for ADHD and neurodivergent life. I'm just a person who has ADHD. Right? And I know that's what our podcast is about. Right?And I, and I know logically that I have every right to be here.

Jordan (00:39:42):


Lex (00:39:43):

But there is still that imposter feeling. And so I can only imagine what it feels like to not have the privilege of a formal diagnosis and not have a welcoming response from a community, which I don't, I think the neurodivergent community for the most part, so many of us don't have health insurance and so, so many of us have had to self-diagnose. Right?

Jordan (00:40:01):


Lex (00:40:02):

But there is that, that fear I think and so that, that is one thing that with comorbidity, especially, that has caused me a lot of strife emotionally because I'm sitting here like, well, I have depression and anxiety. I got diagnosed with depression and anxiety. So do I just think that I have ADHD because of some other things I do, you know, and when you have comorbid conditions, I think it gets so fuzzy. Right? And so blended that, you're just like, do I even have a brain? I don't know. Like, does that make sense?

Jordan (00:40:32):

Yeah no. That makes, that makes complete sense. And I think it kind of comes back to that idea of like what labels mean to you and access to that toolbox of things. But I hear that all the time too, of like, do I really have ADHD? Do I really have this? And I, I think this is a different podcast episode, but that's also largely in part of the perception of ADHD versus the reality of it.

Lex (00:40:57):

Well, it's like that there's that one person on Tumblr. I don't remember what, who, but I remember seeing a post that was like, man, people with ADHD either need to stop being so relatable or I need to go to the doctor.

Jordan (00:41:09):

Hey, spoiler alert. You probably need to go to a Dr.

Lex (00:41:12):

And if you can't afford to go to a doctor, we have linked some resources.

Jordan (00:41:15):

We sure did.

Lex (00:41:16):

And we always do. They're always there, but we do have those resources in our episode descriptions, if you're interested.

Jordan (00:41:21):

This is true. Hopefully the takeaway from this discussion of comorbidity is that you don't have to just have one and try and cram that all into one diagnosis. It's possible and more than that, common to have multiple diagnoses at once. It's not an either or thing. And that's okay.

Lex (00:41:43):


Jordan (00:41:43):

Yeah. I believe the stats show that people with ADHD more often than not have at least one comorbid disorder and depression is the most common. Right?

Lex (00:41:54):

I think depression and anxiety are the two most common from what I saw. And those also overlap all the time. That's those are, those are comorbid.

Jordan (00:42:02):

They sure are.

Lex (00:42:02):

A lot of people who have depression also have anxiety and vice versa.

Jordan (00:42:05):

It's comorbidity all the way down.

Lex (00:42:08):


Jordan (00:42:09):

I feel like at this point there should just be like a mental health punch card where if you rack up 12 comorbidities you get a free coffee.

Lex (00:42:17):

That'd be something, especially the coffee being the end thing there because caffeine does something for a lot of us. Huh? So-

Jordan (00:42:24):

It sure does.

Lex (00:42:25):

Yeah. So I know that wasn't a super in-depth look at comorbidity.

Jordan (00:42:30):

I mean, hopefully that sheds a little bit of light on our usage of it so far and it will come up again because it's, it's a significant part of how we deal with ADHD. It's the color and the flavor.

Lex (00:42:42):

Yeah. And if I listed off all of the symptoms for every single common comorbid disorder or condition-

Jordan (00:42:49):

That'd be the most boring podcast.

Lex (00:42:50):

It would be so boring, so boring. So we will link the sources.

Jordan (00:42:55):


Lex (00:42:55):

So that you can actually go and look at these yourself. And if you feel like you have this, then do some research into it, talk to your doctor, et cetera, et cetera. Uh, so, uh, Jordan.

Jordan (00:43:07):


Lex (00:43:09):

You wanna slip and slide on down to the dopamine trampoline?

Jordan (00:43:12):

Oh boy. Howdy would I ever.

Lex (00:43:15):

It's a very good pool party that I've just created with a slip and slide, a trampoline. A trampoline and a slip and slide next to a pool.

Jordan (00:43:21):

Let's splash baby.

Lex (00:43:23):

Oh, I miss summertime already.

Jordan (00:43:27):

Me too.

Lex (00:43:27):

I do love this spooky fall weather.

Jordan (00:43:29):


Lex (00:43:30):

But I do miss summer. Okay. Sorry. So take us on to this party.

Jordan (00:43:34):


Lex (00:43:34):

On the trampoline-

Jordan (00:43:35):

You know-

Lex (00:43:36):

-of the dopamine kind.

Jordan (00:43:37):

-who we're going to party with?

Lex (00:43:40):


Jordan (00:43:40):

We're going to party with a-

Lex (00:43:42):


Jordan (00:43:43):

Oh that'd be fun.

Lex (00:43:43):


Jordan (00:43:44):

I would love that. We are, we are in the chaos era as we discussed at the top of this podcast so that seems only appropriate, but you know who else we're going to party with?

Lex (00:43:52):


Jordan (00:43:53):

New York Senator Robert F. Wagner.

Lex (00:43:55):


Jordan (00:43:55):

Namesake of the Wagner act, which some of you might know, probably few of you might know, but all of you should know of the National Labor Relations Act of 1935.

Lex (00:44:07):

Hell yes.

Jordan (00:44:09):


Lex (00:44:09):

If you're not a US citizen, I don't know, buckle up. Strap in.

Jordan (00:44:16):

It's a little fun. US uh, employment, labor relations, skinny dip, I will say.

Lex (00:44:21):

Yeah. Some fun and flirty, very valuable information for you to have going forward into this election season.

Jordan (00:44:28):

Absolutely. And if you like, most of the rest of us are a slave to capitalism and have a job. You should know your rights. And that's why the National Labor Relations Act is super important. So the act is two-prong one, it created the National Labor Relations board, which is the primary entity in the United States that prosecutes labor violations, labor law violations. And it also lays out in pretty specific detail your rights as a worker to advocate for your own health and safety and good conditions at your job. The act was called the Wagner Act because it was written by Senator Robert F. Wagner in 1935. It was passed by the 74th United States Congress and signed into law by president Franklin D Roosevelt.

Lex (00:45:13):

He was a hottie.

Jordan (00:45:14):

This is true. He was kind of a babe in his day, anyways.

Lex (00:45:18):

Full on presidential snack.

Jordan (00:45:20):

Oh, he was a presidential meal.

Lex (00:45:23):

I feel real weird that we're objectifying FDR on our podcast.

Jordan (00:45:27):

What's he going to do about it?

Lex (00:45:28):

This is a really weirdly patriotic episode apparently.

Jordan (00:45:32):

I don't know if it's, I dunno if it's patriotic, but-

Lex (00:45:35):

Patriotic in the sense that we live here and while we live here, we want it to be a good place for everybody who lives here.

Jordan (00:45:40):

This is true. We do. That's base level stuff. But anyways so-

Lex (00:45:44):

I will say it once and many more times, the fact that the right got to claim patriotism for some reason-

Jordan (00:45:50):


Lex (00:45:51):

Very, very, very, very, very bad for all of us.

Jordan (00:45:54):


Lex (00:45:56):

And I'm not saying that we all need to be like USA cause no be, please. We should all be more critical of our country and more aware of what's going on elsewhere.

Jordan (00:46:02):

I mean, that's the full like phrase of when people say my country right or wrong, that's, that's not the end of the phrase. The full phrase is my country right or wrong. I'm paraphrasing here, but when right to celebrate it and when wrong to correct it. So anyways, the National Labor Relations Act of 1935.

Lex (00:46:19):


Jordan (00:46:19):

The meat of the act is employees shall have the right to self-organization, that's unions. To form join or assist labor organizations, that's unions. To bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing, that's unions, and not company unions, those are illegal now. To engage in other concerted activities for the purpose of collective bargaining or other mutual aid or protections, and shall also have the right to refrain from any or all of such activities, except to the extent that such right may be affected by an agreement requiring membership in a labor organization as a condition of employment as authorized in section 8A3.

Lex (00:46:56):

So what's that mean?

Jordan (00:46:57):

In layman's and not announcer's terms, you have the right to unionize. You have the right to collectively bargain through a representative, which is anybody elected by a majority of the workforce. You have the right to discuss your work conditions with employees that doesn't have to be in a union. That's any effort to improve your work conditions between two or more people. So that includes the right to discuss policies. That includes the right to discuss the of your workplace. You have the right to participate in employee mutual aid. You have the right to discuss your salary. I want to be super, super clear about that one. There's a huge, I don't know if this is just a US thing or a global thing, that discussing your salary is some sort of taboo. That's hot garbage, and it only benefits your company. Talk about your salary.

Lex (00:47:52):


Jordan (00:47:52):

They want you to keep it secret to keep you apart. You're doing their work for you. You all deserve to get paid more.

Lex (00:47:58):

You're doing their work for you.

Jordan (00:48:00):


Lex (00:48:00):

You're doing their work for them.

Jordan (00:48:02):

Yes I, I said some words you said the thing that I actually meant.

Lex (00:48:07):


Jordan (00:48:08):

Anyways, talk about your salary. I saw someone on Twitter a while back preface a tweet about their salary with I might get fired for this, but that's illegal friends.

Lex (00:48:19):

Yeah. So what would you say about companies that may be put notices up in their, uh, employee areas saying that it's okay not to talk about unions. I know that's not illegal, but what, uh, what are your, what are your thoughts and feelings on that?

Jordan (00:48:32):

So you're, you're right to not join a union is also covered in the National Labor Relations Act. Company's rights to discuss unions and tell you about your rights not to join them is protected by the Hayes Act, uh, which came a little bit later and is, is capitalist garbage so legally you can. Um, morally, if you're discussion of unions in the workplace is to say, don't join a union. Well, if you outright say, don't join a union, that's illegal. But there are, there are ways that companies tow the line to discourage people from joining unions and to those companies I ask what are you afraid of cowards? Huh?

Lex (00:49:18):


Jordan (00:49:19):


Lex (00:49:20):

So I legitimately forgot what I was going to say.

Jordan (00:49:23):

That's super fair. Uh, but to clarify it is outright illegal for companies to form company unions, which are kind of like unions, but they're controlled by the company so you don't actually have any advocacy there as an alternative to a union. It is illegal for them to refuse to bargain with an elected representative. It is illegal for them to make any company policy or take any action to prevent you from talking about your salary. It is illegal to fire you for trying to unionize, although they're gonna try to anyway so watch your back. So the actual law, the official language of it says, uh, it is illegal for companies to interfere with any employees acting in concert to protect their rights covered in National Labor Relations Act, whether or not a union exists. It is illegal for them to quote, dominate or interfere with the formation or administration of a labor union to discriminate against an employee from engaging in concerted or union activities or refraining from them.

Jordan (00:50:25):

So they can't punish you for not joining a union as well unless. That's a condition of employment that you have to join the union once you're employed, it is illegal and that's covered in the second Hayes Act for them to only hire union employees, but they can ask you to join a union later. It is also illegal for businesses to discriminate against an employee for filing charges with the National Labor Relations board or retaliate for that in any way, or take part in any National Labor Relations board proceedings. So like if you testify in a case or provide a witness account or anything like that, they can't retaliate against you or to refuse to bargain with a union. So if you organize and you have an elected representative and they don't acknowledge that. That's, that's, that's straight up illegal. That right is protected by federal law.

Lex (00:51:13):

Yeah. I will say, make sure, you know, your state laws as well.

Jordan (00:51:17):

This is true.

Lex (00:51:18):

Because if you live in a state where-

Jordan (00:51:20):

A right to work state?

Lex (00:51:21):

A right to work or an at-will employment state, that means that they can fire you whenever they want and they don't necessarily have to disclose why they're firing you. So-

Jordan (00:51:32):

So document.

Lex (00:51:33):


Jordan (00:51:33):

I guess is the way to say that cause it, it is still illegal for them to fire you, but companies in right to work or at will work states and companies and other states will often find a reason to fire you. However, it is worth noting that it is precedent with the National Labor Relations board, that there was a case where an employee was fired for a fireable offense, quote, unquote. However, because that was an offense that happened before unionizing activity that they weren't fired for the National Labor Relations board ruled that they were basically using that as an excuse to fire this person for unionization. So document your organization, document your work, be careful don't act alone. I guess that's kind of the whole point of unionizing or in any way, working with your fellow employees to improve your conditions. Like I said, that is covered in this act.

Lex (00:52:27):

So like, this is all I think I just interjected to say that, not to be like, ah, about it, because this is amazing and I love that Jordan brought this as her dopamine trampoline and this was a very specific move on our part for Jordan to give this information to you at the time of year that we're giving, you know, that this podcast is dropping.

Jordan (00:52:45):


Lex (00:52:46):

I do want to just say like, hell yeah. But also when Jordan said, be careful and watch your back and know your rights, be careful, watch your back and know your rights.

Jordan (00:52:55):

Yes. I'm not going to name companies in this podcast, but there's a pretty recent case of somebody being fired for quote unquote being lazy, which is a yikes descriptor.

Lex (00:53:07):

Several, several levels of yikes.

Jordan (00:53:09):

Several levels of yikes when they were actually trying to unionize and they kept their records and they watched their back and they successfully brought a case against this company that is notorious for discouraging unions. So the act does put some parameters on union behavior as well. It is illegal for unions to affect an employer's choice in representative for bargaining. It is illegal for a union to cause an employee to discriminate against an employee, refusing to bargain with the employer, engaging in certain types of secondary boycotts, requiring excessive dues, engaging in featherbedding, which is requiring an employer to pay for unneeded workers, picketing for recognition for more than 30 days without petitioning for an election entering into hot cargo agreements, which is refusing to handle goods from an anti-union employer and striking or picketing a healthcare establishment without giving required notice.

Jordan (00:54:06):

I will say it is important to note, this act does not include agricultural employees, domestic workers, independent contractors, government employees, and folks in the railway or airline industries. That's because people in the railway and airline travel industries are under the jurisdiction of the National Railway Act, which kind of does a similar thing. The union rules are slightly different there, but the act serves a similar purpose. However, everybody else on that list is out of luck. Um, and that's, that's unfortunate for a couple reasons partially because especially in the domain of agricultural and domestic workers, that's a larger percentage of people of color than other industries. And the fact that they're less represented and protected is yeah. There is, it is definitely worth noting that the National Domestic Workers Alliance has been working to pass a Domestic Worker Bill of Rights on the state level. And there are multiple agricultural employee organizations that are working on a similar thing. But just to note that there's definitely some holes in this, this legislation and it is also worth noting that sometimes they just straight up ignore this act when it suited the political powers that be. Most notably by Walt Disney in 1940, um. Who's surprised?

Lex (00:55:32):

Not me.

Jordan (00:55:33):

Nope. What happened was, uh, they went ahead and formed a company union, which is in violation of the law directly to prevent the Cartoon Unionists Guild. That's a tongue twister. Cartoon unionists, cartoon unionist.

Lex (00:55:48):

You're doing amazing.

Jordan (00:55:49):

An anemone. Anemone. So that was an existing trade union that they were trying to keep out of Disney studios and even worse the suggestion, uh, to take that move against the Guild was on the recommendation of Nazi propagandist, Leni Riefenstahl when he was in Disney studios in 1939 to direct six films financed by the Nazi government. So that wasn't great.

Lex (00:56:21):

Okay. I mean, like we all know.

Jordan (00:56:24):


Lex (00:56:25):

Right? Like I say this as someone who loves a lot of those, like that had a big influence on my childhood.

Jordan (00:56:31):

Yeah, of course.

Lex (00:56:31):

But also I feel like we all know this, it's a pretty yikes sorta deal.

Jordan (00:56:37):

It's a monopoly is what it is. I, I will, I will say specific to this part of history. That was the act of the actual person, Walt Disney in 1940. So take that with a whatever grain of salt that's worth to you. One nicer piece of history about the Wagner Act is that there was a Little Wagner Act, which is New York City's city labor code is based on the Wagner Act. And it was written by the incredible Ida Klaus that she was a very, very cool influential lawyer and political mind in like the 1940s and fifties, for better or for worse she was referred to as the woman who thinks like a man, but she was a very cool influential, policymaker and law wiz. And she actually went on to become the head solicitor of the National Labor Relations board, which, which made her the highest ranking female lawyer in the United States government.

Lex (00:57:32):


Jordan (00:57:33):


Lex (00:57:34):


Jordan (00:57:34):

She's amazing. She's going to be a whole nother dopamine trampoline, but look her up. Ida Klaus. Fantastic.

Lex (00:57:39):


Jordan (00:57:40):

And while, we're talking about your rights with your employers because this episode is coming out near election. If you are doing your mail-in ballot, that's amazing. Good for you. Don't forget to send that in. Don't forget to follow the steps very clearly. But if you are going to the polls in certain states, your employer has to give you time off to go. Not all States, but in Illinois where we are recording and we live and I vote, your employer is required to give you two hours off paid if your working hours begin less than two hours after opening of the polls and end less than two hours before closing of the polls you are-

Lex (00:58:19):

So you total need to have at least four hours like total, you're allowed to have four hours, right?

Jordan (00:58:25):

No, you get two hours off, but that's, if you have less than two hours before or after your shift to make it to the polls.

Lex (00:58:33):

Oh, okay.

Jordan (00:58:33):

So if the polls open at 8:00 AM and you start before 10:00 AM and the polls close at 8:00 PM and you leave after 6:00 PM, you are entitled to a two hour window-

Lex (00:58:46):

Got it.

Jordan (00:58:46):

-to go to the polls. If you can't take that before or after work, your employer's required by state law to give you two paid hours off to go to the polls. You do have to give a day's notice and your employer does get to decide when in the day those hours are taken. However, like I said, they are paid and you are not required to bring back proof of voting. Idaho, Oregon, and Michigan, which I know are some other states we have listeners in. Unfortunately don't have a similar law so plan ahead. That is to say, make sure to take that time off. Um, there are other more complicated laws surrounding how your employer can with your political views and how you exercise them. But we're saying this now so that you can plan ahead. Washington, which I know that we have some listeners in, shout out to my home state. Mom, if you're listening to this, I love you. I mean, I love you anyways. Even if you're not but, anyways, Washington state also doesn't have to give you time off to vote, but that's because it's an entirely vote by mail state. And it is also worth noting it is encoded in state law that no employer can attempt to influence you to withhold your vote. So if your employer is scheduling you in a way that makes it hard for you to fill out and return your ballot or influence your political views, that's against state law and they can't do that. So yeah, no, you're right. Kids regulations are written in blood.

Lex (01:00:06):

Yeah. Well, and also on the note of things you should be knowledgeable about, if you are voting in person this year. Do not wear any, any clothing that could be construed as political. Just stop there.

Jordan (01:00:19):

I though you were just going to end it there.

Lex (01:00:21):


Jordan (01:00:22):

Vote nude now.

Lex (01:00:23):

Even if you had a shirt that said like vote, Eleanor Shellstrop 2020, people could still argue that that's a political statement. Even though that's not, it's a fictional character. People could still argue that's a fictional statement. So like, if you want to wear your RBG tee shirt, which like that's a whole other conversation about the commodification of tragedy and the commodification of everything.

Jordan (01:00:45):

Right. So we're not going to tell you whether or not to wear that shirt generally, but you don't wear it to the polls.

Lex (01:00:51):

Don't take pictures of your ballot. Don't take pictures of yourself in the polling booth. Like just-

Jordan (01:00:56):

Get in, get out.

Lex (01:00:57):

Get in, do what you need to do, get out, know who you're voting for. Don't forget to vote down the ballot.

Jordan (01:01:03):

Cover your nose and mouth, wash your hands.

Lex (01:01:06):


Jordan (01:01:06):


Lex (01:01:07):

And also know that if there are people from any political party trying to block or discourage voters from entering a polling place within a certain amount of yards of the building, that's illegal.

Jordan (01:01:19):


Lex (01:01:19):

Just make sure you Google a lot of these things and make sure, you know, I that's all I'm saying.

Jordan (01:01:25):

We will post some resources in our description. Like we usually do where you can get some more information about voting in your state.

Lex (01:01:34):

By the time this episode has come out, it will be past the time where you can still register to vote in most States. So I'm just hoping that y'all are registered.

Jordan (01:01:41):

This is true. However, there are some States that you can register to vote day of. I think Illinois is one of them.

Lex (01:01:46):

Yeah. Again, look into it. Make sure you know what you're doing.

Jordan (01:01:48):


Lex (01:01:49):


Jordan (01:01:49):


Lex (01:01:50):


Jordan (01:01:51):


Lex (01:01:52):

Yeah, please.

Jordan (01:01:53):

So after that, that pretty intense bounce on the dopamine trampoline, do you want to, do you want to take this over? Do you want to take a little trip on our favorite rocket ship flying to the sky?

Lex (01:02:05):

Okay, sure. Um, yeah. I'm going to take y'all to a little fictional place in the very real city of Los Angeles, California.

Jordan (01:02:14):


Lex (01:02:15):

Come on down to the Roxbury with me.

Jordan (01:02:19):

Okay. I'm going with you. I'm on this journey. Tell me more.

Lex (01:02:24):

Okay. So when I was a wee lass-

Jordan (01:02:28):


Jordan (01:02:28):

I was at my cousin's house where I watched many movies that I was not allowed to watch at home. And one of those movies was A Night at the Roxbury. This is a classic movie that came out in 1998.

Jordan (01:02:46):


Lex (01:02:47):

It is based on a long running SNL sketch.

Jordan (01:02:50):


Lex (01:02:50):

Called the Roxbury guys and the, the SNL regulars of the time Will Ferrell and Chris Kattan. So this movie was very, very formative for me.

Jordan (01:03:01):

How so?

Lex (01:03:02):

Well, all right. Um, if you haven't seen it, I'm going to give you a quick synopsis.

Jordan (01:03:06):

Please do.

Lex (01:03:07):

It's about, it's about Steve and Doug Butabi, sons of a wealthy businessman who work at their father's shop, which is a artificial plant store in Los Angeles.

Jordan (01:03:20):

That's a, that's a niche.

Lex (01:03:21):

And their main hobby is frequenting nightclubs.

Jordan (01:03:24):


Lex (01:03:25):

And they are very bad at life, generally speaking. Okay. That's, that's mean, um, okay. Let me just, they, the whole point of the movie, right? The whole plot is that it's these two brothers who are not the brightest bulbs in the-

Jordan (01:03:42):

Artificial plant store?

Lex (01:03:43):

In the artificial plant store but their main goal in life is to open their own nightclub in Los Angeles. And they love club culture. They love Euro dance.

Jordan (01:03:54):

We love an entrepreneur. We love that spirit.

Lex (01:03:57):

Yeah. So, but the main thing is that they are miserably bad at picking up women and they are so uncool. They cannot get into the fabled Roxbury, which is like a very high-end elite club.

Jordan (01:04:11):

Right. Okay.

Lex (01:04:12):

And so these two brothers spend a lot of their free time going to clubs, failing miserably to get women and bobbing their heads in unison to What is Love by Haddaway.

Jordan (01:04:26):

Ah, yes it's all coming back to me now.

Lex (01:04:27):

And so, yes. And so if you've seen the Pepsi commercials where people did this, it's not Pepsi's doing it was this very funny SNL sketch that turned into a movie. And so the movie just follows these two brothers as they try to get into the Roxbury. And when they do eventually get into the Roxbury, as you can fi,

Jordan (01:04:45):

Ah spoilers!

Lex (01:04:45):

The movie is called A Night at the Roxbury. It's right there.

Jordan (01:04:49):

Okay. Fair enough.

Lex (01:04:50):

So it details their night at the Roxbury when they do finally get into it. And it is so, so stupid, it's so stupid, but it just makes me laugh so hard. I, I cannot stress it enough how much influence this movie has had on my life and how often my cousin and I have looked at each other and just yelled "Emilio". And that is a direct quote.

Jordan (01:05:22):

Oh wonderful.

Lex (01:05:23):

It's uh, it's also a coming of age story in some ways as these two brothers combat their father's wish that they grow up and start working harder at this fake plant store. And that they, you know, take on the family business and marry someone with connections and all of these things. Right? Versus yeah. Versus following their own dream of owning a nightclub. And so you do, you get to see this journey they go on.

Jordan (01:05:48):

That's actually like really-

Lex (01:05:50):

It's, it's very poignant.

Jordan (01:05:52):

Yeah. So like then the fake plant store is like a metaphor for like the fake allure of the American dream?

Lex (01:06:00):

One could say. One could say.

Jordan (01:06:02):


Lex (01:06:03):

Um, yeah, no, I mean, I don't have a ton to say about it. I just love this movie. It is so funny. It has some of the funniest bits that I've ever seen. Um, like the, What is Love head bobbing bit is a classic.

Jordan (01:06:14):

Oh yes. Oh yeah. I've never seen Night at the Roxbury and even I know that.

Lex (01:06:17):

Yeah. And then the car dancing where they take turns doing a very, very poor rendition of what may be voguing.

Jordan (01:06:26):

Oh, okay.

Lex (01:06:27):

Um, I mean, there's a whole running bit about how one of the brothers, he will use his credit card transactions as an excuse to call the card approval associate on the phone to flirt with her. This woman who he calls the credit Vixen. So that's like a running bit.

Jordan (01:06:45):

On the one hand, weird on the other hand, every single time I've ever had to call cardholder services at Visa, it's been a very lovely guy. So I, I, I see, I see you.

Lex (01:06:55):


Jordan (01:06:56):

And your credit white whale woman.

Lex (01:06:58):

Yeah. I will say I, uh, they are not the, when I said they're not the brightest bulbs and you said in the artificial plant store, I should clarify. They're not the brightest bulbs in the lighting emporium that they share a wall with, at the artificial plant store. Yeah. I mean it's starring Will Ferrell, which I know people have some polarized opinions on him, but this one is a good one in my opinion. I am a really bad judge of comedy because I will laugh at almost anything. Jordan can confirm this. Like I have very poor comedic taste because I will laugh at nearly everything.

Jordan (01:07:30):

It's a great ego boost for me though.

Lex (01:07:32):

Yeah. But also like I truly enjoy Superbad. So like, you know, I, I truly laugh very hard at Superbad.

Jordan (01:07:43):

I also haven't seen that.

Lex (01:07:45):

That's fine. That's good. Um, that's probably best that, all that to say. I have a lot of opinions on comedy and they're all probably bad takes.

Jordan (01:07:54):

Whatever does the job. I mean, whatever, whatever brings you a little chuckle.

Lex (01:07:58):

Exactly, and that's why we're here because this does give me that good, good dopamine. And I really just need to explain one scene to y'all.

Jordan (01:08:07):


Lex (01:08:07):

Because this is the scene that was really pivotal for me in my comedy journey.

Jordan (01:08:12):

Oh, I can't wait to hear about this, please. Please tell me more, Lex.

Lex (01:08:14):

Yes. And it's a scene where they have somehow managed to pick up some women at the Roxbury.

Jordan (01:08:20):

All right.

Lex (01:08:21):

To do some-

Jordan (01:08:22):


Lex (01:08:23):

Some activities of the adult variety and then-

Jordan (01:08:27):

While they're signing mortgages together-

Lex (01:08:29):

Yeah. No. So these women who they managed to pick up, they think that the brothers are very rich because they're talking to a club owner at one point and it's this whole thing and so they only sleep with them because they think that they're rich. And then these men think that they're in serious relationships now with these women. And one of the things that happens in one of these scenes is one of the brothers talks about the sound that he heard when he first saw this woman. And she's like, what was it? And he just goes, [siren sounds] and because this is fair enough, very confusing. He goes on to explain that it was an ambulance coming because his heart stopped.

Jordan (01:09:14):


Lex (01:09:15):

And so I thought that was the funniest s*** I'd ever heard.

Jordan (01:09:21):

It's creative, I'll give him that.

Lex (01:09:22):

So I would just [siren sounds].

Jordan (01:09:24):

At what age?

Lex (01:09:25):

I was like in second grade when I watched this movie.

Jordan (01:09:29):

Were you walking around quoting Night at the Roxbury?

Lex (01:09:29):

Yeah. And I was like Emilio! Emilio Estevez.

Jordan (01:09:32):

Oh, wow.

Lex (01:09:38):

Hopefully, that gives y'all, some insight into who I am as a person. Uh, yeah. I can't promise that it's aged well. I haven't seen it in a couple of years now, but I definitely really have a soft spot in my heart for it.

Jordan (01:09:48):

Wow. I'm not going to lie. The idea of second grade Lex just going [siren sounds] gives me so much dopamine. So thank you for that.

Lex (01:09:58):

Yeah. You're welcome. You are so welcome. I was a weird little kid y'all. Like, I know, you know, and I know y'all can probably guess, but like, no, really like I was a strange one. I was an odd little duck as they say.

Jordan (01:10:11):

That's marvelous.

Lex (01:10:13):

Yeah. So that's all I got for ya. I hopefully, you know, I know it's not as like in-depth or serious, but-

Jordan (01:10:19):

But a good chuckle. A good amount of levity I think for an otherwise pretty chunky episode.

Lex (01:10:24):

She is chunky.

Jordan (01:10:25):

She's a big girl. She's a fat bottom girl. She makes the world go round as Freddie Mercury says, this episode. Um-

Lex (01:10:30):

Coincidentally also one of my favorite karaoke songs.

Jordan (01:10:33):

Yeah. That being said, do we want to close this one out?

Lex (01:10:35):

I guess. So. Yeah.

Jordan (01:10:36):

Alrighty. This has been Or, Learn Parkour from Wholehearted Production Company.

Lex (01:10:41):

You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, et cetera. You know, the places where the cool kids listen to their podcasts.

Jordan (01:10:47):

Special thanks to Krizia Perito for our wonderful cover art. You can find her at Petal Hop that's P E T A L H O P on Instagram and Etsy and Twitter. Go say hi.

Lex (01:10:58):

Yeah, thanks to Tom Rosenthal for our intro and outro song, "There is a Dark Place" off of the album "Keep a Private Room Behind the Shop."

Jordan (01:11:05):

Please follow us on the social meds or @orlearnparkour on Twitter. I know you're still mad about it @wearewpc on instagram and at wearewpc.com.

Lex (01:11:17):

Yeah and you will find links to all of those delicious things we just talked about and links to transcripts and our sources all in our episode description.

Jordan (01:11:25):

If you have enjoyed this podcast and want to hear more, please subscribe to this feed.

Lex (01:11:30):

Also, you can support the show by sharing the show with a friend, maybe your family, if you're chill like that, leave us a review on iTunes.

Jordan (01:11:39):

Or Goodpods now.

Lex (01:11:39):

Or Goodpods. Yeah, we're on Goodpods now.

Jordan (01:11:42):

Come say hi.

Lex (01:11:42):

Yes or you could even maybe donate to our Ko-Fi, uh, which the link to our Ko-Fi is in our Twitter bio.

Jordan (01:11:49):

It sure is. It's also on our link tree in our Instagram so there are many ways to find that if that's something you are in a place to do right now, if you're not-

Both (01:11:56):

We get it.

Lex (01:11:56):

We super get it.

Jordan (01:11:56):

Yeah. That's all we've got for you today. Do we have an outro question?

Lex (01:12:02):

I mean, so A Night at the Roxbury style, What is Love is very much the song for those brothers, right? What would you say our song is?

Jordan (01:12:10):

Like our go out and party song?

Lex (01:12:11):

Like our friendship song.

Jordan (01:12:13):

Oh geez.

Lex (01:12:15):

You cannot look at your Spotify. You got to do this off the dome.

Jordan (01:12:19):

Uh, I would say our, our friendship song is, oh God. What do you think?

Lex (01:12:27):

Istanbul (not Constantinople).

Jordan (01:12:29):

That's a good one. Although I feel like that one is specific to a sense of humor that expands beyond us. I would say a little more specific to us would be The Girl from Ipanema.

Lex (01:12:40):


Jordan (01:12:41):


Lex (01:12:41):

Yeah. All right.

Jordan (01:12:42):

All right. I'm Jordan.

Jordan (01:12:43):

I'm Lex.

Jordan (01:12:44):

And this has been Or, Learn Parkour. We'll see you in two weeks.

Lex (01:12:47):


Both (01:12:47):

[humming The Girl from Ipanema)


[Outro Music: There Is A Dark Place by Tom Rosenthal].